[Vanhackspace] Proposed change to principles: requiring openness on VHS projects

Ryan Smith bigryeguy at gmail.com
Fri Aug 28 11:25:43 PDT 2009 

Members can definitely work on personal projects at the space which  
they will benefit from. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.  
You just need to be clear about that if you include other people. That  
being said, group projects should get priority when it comes to  
sharing infrastructure.

Ryan

On 28-Aug-09, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Harvey <alex at pixelfactor.ca> wrote:

> Maybe I'm the only one concerned by this, but I would like to work  
> on projects that may in the end be something I patent or sell. These  
> projects would be made by me alone and may or may not use tools  
> provided at VHS (laser cutter etc). The second issues would be if I  
> where to do any sort of consulting, all the work I do is normally  
> owned by the customer, I have no rights to it in any shape fashion  
> or form. Again, I would like to use the space and some of the tools.  
> Having such a strong restriction is a very big turn off for using  
> the space. Maybe it would be wise to also add a loop hole, say  
> "corporate" members etc can pay 100$ and a percentage of profit made  
> or something to the space and should TRY to keep there stuff open,  
> but are not required to do so.
>
> Alex
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Luke Closs <lukecloss at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> I would also like to see us set the expectation that we're not going
> to be (at least initially) nazi's about this, and we encourage people
> to talk about this policy and see how it works over time.
>
> Luke
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Ryan Smith<bigryeguy at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> > Great last point Luke. I think we really need to set up a frame work
> > so that people know what is acceptable and expected as far as  
> projects
> > as opposed to the idea of telling people what to do.
> >
> > Joe, I think we agree on the non-member point. To clarify my point  
> of
> > "I don't think non-members should be using physical infrastructure  
> for
> > personal hardware projects." I would probably add "on an ongoing
> > basis." Which given the context I think is implied, but not as
> > explicit as my intention.
> >
> > Ryan
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Luke Closs<lukecloss at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> >> I'm happy with the points that have been raised - I don't have  
> much to add.
> >>
> >> I like the VHS space for hacking, and at various times I've  
> worked on
> >> the vhs-door project (VHS group project, open sourced license),
> >> vantrash (spawned at a VHS event (SHHH), worked on by VHS  
> members, but
> >> for an external context, released under an open source license),
> >> personal projects (contributions to other open source projects),  
> and
> >> on occasion personal $work projects.
> >>
> >> I think what has been discussed here gives me a good frame of
> >> reference for how to think of my projects' relation to VHS.
> >>
> >> Luke
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Joe Bowser<bowserj at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> >>> I agree with this for the most part.  This comes into play when  
> it includes
> >>> future infrastructure like a RepRap or a Laser Cutter.
> >>>
> >>> On another note, things get really messy when things owned by  
> other
> >>> non-member groups are in the space.  For example, Boris Mann and  
> a lot of
> >>> other people who may not want to be members of VHS want to buy a
> >>> CupcakeCNC.  Now, when we discussed CupCake CNC, we agreed that  
> we could
> >>> probably build it ourselves for cheaper than the $750 USD that  
> it costs, and
> >>> we decided to not get one.  So, if a non-member wanted to make a  
> personal
> >>> project on the CupCake CNC which just happens to be stored at  
> VHS (because
> >>> we're friendly to anyone building anything), what does that mean?
> >>>
> >>> I think that it's fine for Personal Projects to be brought into  
> the space by
> >>> non-members for their first night, because that's how things  
> like RepRaps,
> >>> Robot Arms, and other cool stuff gets brought into the space in  
> the first
> >>> place.  I think that it's really a case by case basis, and if  
> someone is
> >>> showing up over and over again, using our tools and not actually
> >>> paying/contributing in any way, we need to have a talk with that  
> person.  It
> >>> hasn't really happened yet, to be honest.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Ryan Smith  
> <bigryeguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Some great discussion so far.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think we need to make the distinction between personal  
> projects and
> >>>> group projects. Also I think we need to make a distinction for  
> members
> >>>> and non-members as well. Members should be free to work on  
> personal
> >>>> projects in the space, using the infrastructure (wireless, tools,
> >>>> space) and there would be no expectation that you would be open  
> with
> >>>> the project. When you start including other members (asking for
> >>>> advice, gang programming) you need to be clear that what you  
> are doing
> >>>> is a personal project that you may get some benefit from. This  
> gives
> >>>> other people the option of saying that they don't wish to be  
> involved
> >>>> with a personal project.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think that all other activities in the space should be open.  
> I think
> >>>> Derek's suggestion of the use of licenses from
> >>>> http://www.opensource.org/licenses with software is appropriate.
> >>>> Groups should be free to choose the license they wish within  
> those
> >>>> constraints. Projects should also be open in the sense that  
> anyone can
> >>>> become involved with them. Hardware I would like to see covered  
> by
> >>>> some sort of Open Hardware License, but I'm not too familiar  
> with this
> >>>> side of it. Oblig wiki link,
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_hardware
> >>>>
> >>>> One thing that personally I have strong feelings about and may be
> >>>> contentious is that non-members should not be working on personal
> >>>> _hardware_ projects at the space and have to be clear if they are
> >>>> working on personal _software_ projects when working with other
> >>>> people. Currently this has little implication, but when we have  
> more
> >>>> tools in the space I think there needs to be a distinction.
> >>>> Non-members should be encouraged to attend VHS, contribute to  
> group
> >>>> projects, learn how to use the tools and become involved with the
> >>>> group. I don't think non-members should be using physical
> >>>> infrastructure for personal hardware projects. I think this is  
> as much
> >>>> a philosophical issue as it is a liability and safety issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ryan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Sim<richard.a.sim at gmail.com 
> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> > I'm the one who brought this up in the IRC channel several  
> weeks back
> >>>> > when I
> >>>> > was looking into joining VHS.
> >>>> > What defines "VHS infrastructure"? Does that differ  
> significantly from
> >>>> > "anything developed at the space"? While I understand your  
> point about
> >>>> > what
> >>>> > could come down to problems with people making money off of  
> VHS's
> >>>> > servers,
> >>>> > but what about everything else? My primary concern when  
> bringing it up
> >>>> > initially was about what if I worked on a private electronics  
> project at
> >>>> > VHS, and how do the VHS principles force my hand as to what I  
> do with
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > project. I'm talking about doing some soldering, using a  
> scope, printing
> >>>> > a
> >>>> > circuit board to etch, using the wireless, and so on at VHS.  
> All that to
> >>>> > me
> >>>> > is "VHS infrastructure", but I don't think it's the intention  
> of the VHS
> >>>> > principles to mandate that I'd have to open-source the  
> project (nor the
> >>>> > intention of the proposed principle changes, but the wording  
> still makes
> >>>> > it
> >>>> > seem that it does).
> >>>> >
> >>>> > -Richard
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Derek Anderson
> >>>> > <derek at chargedmultimedia.com> wrote:
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I think that we are going to have to allow alternative  
> licenses to the
> >>>> >> GPL. Not all "OPEN" licenses are compatible with the GPL,  
> which may
> >>>> >> restrict
> >>>> >> our source libraries on projects (ie: what if we want to use  
> Sun or
> >>>> >> AGPL
> >>>> >> licensed code).
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> http://www.opensource.org/licenses has a list of all the OSI  
> approved
> >>>> >> licenses, and I propose we accept any of those.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jeff Davis <jeff at textsfornothing.com 
> >
> >>>> >> wrote:
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Our principles[*] currently say that VHS is a "GPL/Creative  
> Commons"
> >>>> >>> space and require that anything developed at the space be  
> released
> >>>> >>> under
> >>>> >>> the GPL or a Creative Commons license.  This came up at  
> tonight's
> >>>> >>> infrastructure meeting, and it was proposed that we change  
> this to say
> >>>> >>> that VHS group projects and projects using VHS  
> infrastructure must be
> >>>> >>> "open," in two senses:
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> (1) Anyone can participate.
> >>>> >>> (2) The project must be released under a free/open source  
> license (not
> >>>> >>> necessarily the GPL).
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> This would mean that if you are running a project on our  
> servers, or
> >>>> >>> doing substantial development work on it using our servers,  
> you'd need
> >>>> >>> to release your code under an open license.  If you're just  
> working on
> >>>> >>> something on your laptop, no such expectation would exist.
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Thoughts?
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> Jeff
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> [*]: http://vancouver.hackspace.ca/doku.php?id=principles
> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> >>> Vanhackspace mailing list
> >>>> >>> Vanhackspace at lists.uselessdegree.net
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>>
> >>>> >>> http://lists.uselessdegree.net/listinfo.cgi/vanhackspace-uselessdegree.net
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> >
> >>>> >
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