[Vanhackspace] Proposed change to principles: requiring openness on VHS projects

Fri Aug 28 10:40:39 PDT 2009

Great last point Luke. I think we really need to set up a frame work
so that people know what is acceptable and expected as far as projects
as opposed to the idea of telling people what to do.

Joe, I think we agree on the non-member point. To clarify my point of
"I don't think non-members should be using physical infrastructure for
personal hardware projects." I would probably add "on an ongoing
basis." Which given the context I think is implied, but not as
explicit as my intention.

Ryan

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Luke Closs<lukecloss at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm happy with the points that have been raised - I don't have much to add.
>
> I like the VHS space for hacking, and at various times I've worked on
> the vhs-door project (VHS group project, open sourced license),
> vantrash (spawned at a VHS event (SHHH), worked on by VHS members, but
> for an external context, released under an open source license),
> personal projects (contributions to other open source projects), and
> on occasion personal $work projects.
>
> I think what has been discussed here gives me a good frame of
> reference for how to think of my projects' relation to VHS.
>
> Luke
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Joe Bowser<bowserj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree with this for the most part.  This comes into play when it includes
>> future infrastructure like a RepRap or a Laser Cutter.
>>
>> On another note, things get really messy when things owned by other
>> non-member groups are in the space.  For example, Boris Mann and a lot of
>> other people who may not want to be members of VHS want to buy a
>> CupcakeCNC.  Now, when we discussed CupCake CNC, we agreed that we could
>> probably build it ourselves for cheaper than the $750 USD that it costs, and
>> we decided to not get one.  So, if a non-member wanted to make a personal
>> project on the CupCake CNC which just happens to be stored at VHS (because
>> we're friendly to anyone building anything), what does that mean?
>>
>> I think that it's fine for Personal Projects to be brought into the space by
>> non-members for their first night, because that's how things like RepRaps,
>> Robot Arms, and other cool stuff gets brought into the space in the first
>> place.  I think that it's really a case by case basis, and if someone is
>> showing up over and over again, using our tools and not actually
>> paying/contributing in any way, we need to have a talk with that person.  It
>> hasn't really happened yet, to be honest.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Ryan Smith <bigryeguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some great discussion so far.
>>>
>>> I think we need to make the distinction between personal projects and
>>> group projects. Also I think we need to make a distinction for members
>>> and non-members as well. Members should be free to work on personal
>>> projects in the space, using the infrastructure (wireless, tools,
>>> space) and there would be no expectation that you would be open with
>>> the project. When you start including other members (asking for
>>> advice, gang programming) you need to be clear that what you are doing
>>> is a personal project that you may get some benefit from. This gives
>>> other people the option of saying that they don't wish to be involved
>>> with a personal project.
>>>
>>> I think that all other activities in the space should be open. I think
>>> Derek's suggestion of the use of licenses from
>>> http://www.opensource.org/licenses with software is appropriate.
>>> Groups should be free to choose the license they wish within those
>>> constraints. Projects should also be open in the sense that anyone can
>>> become involved with them. Hardware I would like to see covered by
>>> some sort of Open Hardware License, but I'm not too familiar with this
>>> side of it. Oblig wiki link,
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_hardware
>>>
>>> One thing that personally I have strong feelings about and may be
>>> contentious is that non-members should not be working on personal
>>> _hardware_ projects at the space and have to be clear if they are
>>> working on personal _software_ projects when working with other
>>> people. Currently this has little implication, but when we have more
>>> tools in the space I think there needs to be a distinction.
>>> Non-members should be encouraged to attend VHS, contribute to group
>>> projects, learn how to use the tools and become involved with the
>>> group. I don't think non-members should be using physical
>>> infrastructure for personal hardware projects. I think this is as much
>>> a philosophical issue as it is a liability and safety issue.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Sim<richard.a.sim at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I'm the one who brought this up in the IRC channel several weeks back
>>> > when I
>>> > was looking into joining VHS.
>>> > What defines "VHS infrastructure"? Does that differ significantly from
>>> > "anything developed at the space"? While I understand your point about
>>> > what
>>> > could come down to problems with people making money off of VHS's
>>> > servers,
>>> > but what about everything else? My primary concern when bringing it up
>>> > initially was about what if I worked on a private electronics project at
>>> > VHS, and how do the VHS principles force my hand as to what I do with
>>> > the
>>> > project. I'm talking about doing some soldering, using a scope, printing
>>> > a
>>> > circuit board to etch, using the wireless, and so on at VHS. All that to
>>> > me
>>> > is "VHS infrastructure", but I don't think it's the intention of the VHS
>>> > principles to mandate that I'd have to open-source the project (nor the
>>> > intention of the proposed principle changes, but the wording still makes
>>> > it
>>> > seem that it does).
>>> >
>>> > -Richard
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Derek Anderson
>>> > <derek at chargedmultimedia.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I think that we are going to have to allow alternative licenses to the
>>> >> GPL. Not all "OPEN" licenses are compatible with the GPL, which may
>>> >> restrict
>>> >> our source libraries on projects (ie: what if we want to use Sun or
>>> >> AGPL
>>> >> licensed code).
>>> >>
>>> >> http://www.opensource.org/licenses has a list of all the OSI approved
>>> >> licenses, and I propose we accept any of those.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jeff Davis <jeff at textsfornothing.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Our principles[*] currently say that VHS is a "GPL/Creative Commons"
>>> >>> space and require that anything developed at the space be released
>>> >>> under
>>> >>> the GPL or a Creative Commons license.  This came up at tonight's
>>> >>> infrastructure meeting, and it was proposed that we change this to say
>>> >>> that VHS group projects and projects using VHS infrastructure must be
>>> >>> "open," in two senses:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> (1) Anyone can participate.
>>> >>> (2) The project must be released under a free/open source license (not
>>> >>> necessarily the GPL).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> This would mean that if you are running a project on our servers, or
>>> >>> doing substantial development work on it using our servers, you'd need
>>> >>> to release your code under an open license.  If you're just working on
>>> >>> something on your laptop, no such expectation would exist.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thoughts?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Jeff
>>> >>>
>>> >>> [*]: http://vancouver.hackspace.ca/doku.php?id=principles
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>>> >>
>>> >>
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