[Vanhackspace] Proposed change to principles: requiring openness on VHS projects

Fri Aug 28 09:02:51 PDT 2009

I agree with this for the most part.  This comes into play when it includes
future infrastructure like a RepRap or a Laser Cutter.

On another note, things get really messy when things owned by other
non-member groups are in the space.  For example, Boris Mann and a lot of
other people who may not want to be members of VHS want to buy a
CupcakeCNC.  Now, when we discussed CupCake CNC, we agreed that we could
probably build it ourselves for cheaper than the $750 USD that it costs, and
we decided to not get one.  So, if a non-member wanted to make a personal
project on the CupCake CNC which just happens to be stored at VHS (because
we're friendly to anyone building anything), what does that mean?

I think that it's fine for Personal Projects to be brought into the space by
non-members for their first night, because that's how things like RepRaps,
Robot Arms, and other cool stuff gets brought into the space in the first
place.  I think that it's really a case by case basis, and if someone is
showing up over and over again, using our tools and not actually
paying/contributing in any way, we need to have a talk with that person.  It
hasn't really happened yet, to be honest.

Joe

On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Ryan Smith <bigryeguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some great discussion so far.
>
> I think we need to make the distinction between personal projects and
> group projects. Also I think we need to make a distinction for members
> and non-members as well. Members should be free to work on personal
> projects in the space, using the infrastructure (wireless, tools,
> space) and there would be no expectation that you would be open with
> the project. When you start including other members (asking for
> advice, gang programming) you need to be clear that what you are doing
> is a personal project that you may get some benefit from. This gives
> other people the option of saying that they don't wish to be involved
> with a personal project.
>
> I think that all other activities in the space should be open. I think
> Derek's suggestion of the use of licenses from
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses with software is appropriate.
> Groups should be free to choose the license they wish within those
> constraints. Projects should also be open in the sense that anyone can
> become involved with them. Hardware I would like to see covered by
> some sort of Open Hardware License, but I'm not too familiar with this
> side of it. Oblig wiki link,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_hardware
>
> One thing that personally I have strong feelings about and may be
> contentious is that non-members should not be working on personal
> _hardware_ projects at the space and have to be clear if they are
> working on personal _software_ projects when working with other
> people. Currently this has little implication, but when we have more
> tools in the space I think there needs to be a distinction.
> Non-members should be encouraged to attend VHS, contribute to group
> projects, learn how to use the tools and become involved with the
> group. I don't think non-members should be using physical
> infrastructure for personal hardware projects. I think this is as much
> a philosophical issue as it is a liability and safety issue.
>
> Ryan
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Richard Sim<richard.a.sim at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I'm the one who brought this up in the IRC channel several weeks back
> when I
> > was looking into joining VHS.
> > What defines "VHS infrastructure"? Does that differ significantly from
> > "anything developed at the space"? While I understand your point about
> what
> > could come down to problems with people making money off of VHS's
> servers,
> > but what about everything else? My primary concern when bringing it up
> > initially was about what if I worked on a private electronics project at
> > VHS, and how do the VHS principles force my hand as to what I do with the
> > project. I'm talking about doing some soldering, using a scope, printing
> a
> > circuit board to etch, using the wireless, and so on at VHS. All that to
> me
> > is "VHS infrastructure", but I don't think it's the intention of the VHS
> > principles to mandate that I'd have to open-source the project (nor the
> > intention of the proposed principle changes, but the wording still makes
> it
> > seem that it does).
> >
> > -Richard
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Derek Anderson
> > <derek at chargedmultimedia.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that we are going to have to allow alternative licenses to the
> >> GPL. Not all "OPEN" licenses are compatible with the GPL, which may
> restrict
> >> our source libraries on projects (ie: what if we want to use Sun or AGPL
> >> licensed code).
> >>
> >> http://www.opensource.org/licenses has a list of all the OSI approved
> >> licenses, and I propose we accept any of those.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jeff Davis <jeff at textsfornothing.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Our principles[*] currently say that VHS is a "GPL/Creative Commons"
> >>> space and require that anything developed at the space be released
> under
> >>> the GPL or a Creative Commons license.  This came up at tonight's
> >>> infrastructure meeting, and it was proposed that we change this to say
> >>> that VHS group projects and projects using VHS infrastructure must be
> >>> "open," in two senses:
> >>>
> >>> (1) Anyone can participate.
> >>> (2) The project must be released under a free/open source license (not
> >>> necessarily the GPL).
> >>>
> >>> This would mean that if you are running a project on our servers, or
> >>> doing substantial development work on it using our servers, you'd need
> >>> to release your code under an open license.  If you're just working on
> >>> something on your laptop, no such expectation would exist.
> >>>
> >>> Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>> Jeff
> >>>
> >>> [*]: http://vancouver.hackspace.ca/doku.php?id=principles
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
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